by slamdawg9, April 23 2008 : 5:18am

Hi fanatic, been awhile since I've seen you around. Wow, I see you've got a very interesting debate going on here. As someone else already mentioned, I truly admire your convictions and your unshakable stance in your beliefs. But I would have to agree with Varholy, religion is the biggest con game ever perpetrated on mankind, it's a man-made thing, conceived by mortals who lived and died, just like we do in modern times. It has always been a means for power hungry madman to control the masses through fear. I do not doubt the existense of a 'creator' (God, creative force, however you choose to look at it) because hey, this universe didn't create itself. But I don't believe there is anyone on the face of this entire earth who can comprehend who, or what God (the creative force) is. How could they? Sure, certain people have claimed to have visions, but how could they possibly know they're authentic? I've seen what I truly believed was a ghost, and a UFO, but people have laughed at me about it. Yet people will automatically accept the claims of a 'religious experience'?
I've no doubt that religion is a good thing, for people who truly have a strong sense of morals and want to live their life doing the right thing. But the majority of folks (if they would admit it) would tell you they go to church, and they got saved because they wanted to go to heaven, instead of hell. See what's wrong with this picture? Would a loving, 'biblical' God rule through fear?
I could go on all day about this, but I'll sum it up this way, these are my beliefs: We are all born with free will, for a reason. It's up to us to make our own way through life, and make decisions for ourselves, not rely on a two-thousand year old text telling us how to live our lives. (iDoSay made some very interesting points, btw) I do believe that our souls do live on, and I also believe in karma. We reap what we sow. If you're a miserable S.O.B in this life, you'll still be a miserable S.O.B whereever you end up after you leave this plane of existense. And vice-versa for a 'good', decent person. It's up to us to become the best person we can be, and no one else.

by fanatic-777, April 22 2008 : 5:51pm

by fanatic-777, April 20 2008 : 9:29pm
Here is proof that Heaven and Hell are real, that God exists and that Jesus Christ is His Son:
.http://www.spiritlessons.com/
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And http://bibleprobe.com/nde.htm
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. People, please read this. It's going to be brief this time
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All you have to do is acknowledge you are a sinner, repent (turn away from) your sins and make Jesus the Lord of your life and you will meet God in Heaven once you die.
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By turning away from every kind of sin, humans become perfect, sinless and frees themselves from evil. Only through Jesus can this be done. Think about it, atheism, philosophies of life, islam, all those things NEVER have and NEVER will enable one to become perfect, entirely sinless, untouched by any kind of evil.
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Have genuine faith in Him, call on Him when you're having difficulties & be thankful when He provides for you and He will bless your life.
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And remember, God says in the Bible "If you seek me with all your heart, you will find me",Deuteronomy 4:29. When you seek Him there must be not a single shadow of doubt in your heart, but joyful expectation about what is to come.
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I think I've said it all. God bless you all.

by Umbrageous, April 21 2008 : 2:39pm

Hey, thanks for taking the time to watch those videos, I really didn't expect them to change your faith. I just wanted you to see them... and, I don't know why to be honest.
I could spend an hour or so countering everything you just said about creation, DNA, evolution being "just a theory" etc, but I suspect you already know the true definition of a theory in the scientific sense of the term, and the arguments I could type here regarding your other points are covered in those links.
The thing is I don't want to come across as a pushy atheist. I'm just glad you took the time to watch those clips. I'll do the same with the clips you linked. Thanks for taking the time to make an intelligent response. Don't stop searching for answers

by fanatic-777, April 21 2008 : 2:04pm

Hi Umbrageous, good to meet you.
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Why do you doubt NDEs ? No reasonable Christian would dare lie about the afterlife for fear of punishment... Anyway check this out http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidenc e03.html. Science still has no answer as to why a blind person can see his body and surroundings at the time of an NDE and claims to see Jesus.
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My faith in the Lord will remain the same, for no scientific theory can tell me my experience with God is not valid. I have gathered evidence there is a Hell and Heaven, that Jesus exists as Son of God but I mostly rely on faith. However, I'll still answer the points made on those youtube vids.
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You know I can't watch all of them, so if there's a point you want me to make about a particular subject, tell me, but before I just need to say that science is not infallible, as this link proves: http://www.physorg.com/news127499715.html If science can make a mistake on this subject, (and it's matter of the utmost importance, because that asteroid is a serious threat to humanity) I'm sure there are hundreds of mistakes more and approximations that remain hidden. Some people put a blind faith in science and some of it's mistakes and are deceived. I advise you not to put blind and unsceptical faith in science.
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1) Creation & Evolution The Bible states that man was created in the image of God. So every human feature, like the human skull was created in the image of God. Just look at the skull of the cro-magnon homo sapiens who lived (according to science) 30 000 years ago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Homo_sapie ns That skull is not a human skull and thus is not in God's image. Therefore what are called "homo-sapiens" were not human, and the same goes for his predecessors (Neanderthal, etc).The Bible does not recognise them as humans, so the history of those beings is rather irrelevant to me and does not contradict biblical creation.
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This washes aside all theories of evolution, that have obvious flaws anyway: like in one of the vids there's talk about a "missing link". Anyway there is no scientific proof for evolution, it's just a theory.
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2)Case of DNA-The presentator blames God, but all sickness comes from the Devil.This guy seriously needs to read the Bible before making dumb claims like that. The devil is the author of sickness and Jesus came in the past to destroy his works. The difformities here caused by DNA are a corruption of God's creation. And where does all evil, every corruption come from ? From the devil, it's common sense really. I could go on for ages on that subject, add Bible quotes but it would take for ever.
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3) Origin of life The presentator says DNA was made from components from the ground whereas the Bible says God created man out of dust."And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul". It's the same thing, the only difference is that science leaves God out of the equation
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4)Creation & Age of the world: There are many different interpretations of the relevant Bible scripture,the 7days could be literal or metaphorical. It's possible in a literal interpretation that a day in that time lasted much longer that 24hours, with the garden of Eden being a bit like the eternal Heavens. Otherwise science can't say anything against the metaphorical interpretation.
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5)What every creationist must deny (cdk007) The presentator has it wrong. I don't think he actually makes any sense. He says "creationists think they can deny evolution but happily accept the rest science has to offer. Most own computers (...), use an electronic device. However if you deny evolution you must deny all the following: logic, human reason scientific method"
Science has been able to prove that when you light paper on fire, it is consumed. All one has to do is take a lighter, do it and they've proven it. But nobody can do the same thing for the theory of evolution.
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Lastly you talk about following God like it's something unpleasant for Christians (most atheists share this misconception). That's not the case at all. It's with a joyful and faithful heart that those who know Him follow Him.
Maybe you'll have time to see this: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=... q=%2223+minutes +in+Hell%22&total=134&start=0&num=10&so=0&typ e=sea rch&plindex=0&hl=en-GB

by Umbrageous, April 21 2008 : 5:59am

Hi, I can never even hope to convert someone who needs to believe in the supernatural, doesn't stop me trying though, and I don't want to be drawn into a debate about "near death experiences" and the like..it really is folly.However I do hate to see the propagation of religion in our supposedly enlightened times. People living in hope of an after life are wasting this short, wonderful, vital existance in my opinion. Do yourself a favour, and watch this Youtube users videos
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=po tholer54&p=r
He describes the wonders of the universe much more eloquently than I ever could. He also explains how it can all be attributed to natural forces and debunks some Christian ideas about creation etc. If this isn't enough (and please DO watch them..they are awe inspiring) then I also recommend the following users channels;
http://www.youtube.com/user/cdk007?ob=1
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=Th underf00t&p=r
http://www.youtube.com/user/RabidApe
Don't take these people's versions of the Universe as "gospel" But think for yourself. If you can counter anything in those videos with solid observable evidence then you can step up and claim a Nobel Prize, because you would be the first to do so in the history of humankind. Sorry to preach, I'm just trying to save your soul And I don't think "respecting another's beliefs" extends to placing them beyond criticism and rational analysis.

by fanatic-777, April 20 2008 : 7:29pm

Here is proof that Heaven and Hell are real, that God exists and that Jesus Christ is His Son: http://www.spiritlessons.com/

by fanatic-777, April 18 2008 : 11:07am

by I am Varholy, April 17 2008 : 10:30am

Nothing but mass hysteria or undiagnosed mental problems for quote/unquote possessions and the following exorcism.
I strongly I mean STRONGLY doubt you can accomplish a bloody thing by placing faith in some intangible thing that a group of oppressed people cooked up to get them by in trying times.
I'll always dislike religion, I despise how it tricks its followers into becoming so incredibly blind and desensitized to the truth. That type of swindling belongs with big corporations like Apple (I hate that computer company). I have my public emails and public IM screennames in the forums. Send me a message sometime. Youu seem like an intellectual

by iDosay, April 17 2008 : 1:58am

I have a lot of respect for the amount of faith you have. I think it would be nice to have little or no doubt, but there are too many unanswered questions for me to fully accept any one religion, or to fully accept without a doubt the existence of a God. I am strictly undecided, an agnostic by definition. But, since your signature in the forums invites anyone to ask anything they want, perhaps you can provide me with some food for thought.
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My first question is this: If God does exist, than why would He create humans, place them in Africa around 160,000 years ago, and wait around 150,000 years to tell Abraham to let it be known that He was the one true God and there is a doctrine they should follow in order to get into heaven. And then wait somewhere around 3,500 years to have his son spread another message: The 'Pagan' majority was wrong in their practice of worshiping several gods; there is really but one God, the Jews almost had Abraham's message correct, but not quite. Then the rest is history. (And that leaves out the other monotheistic doctrines, a factor that to me is hard to ignore.)
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My question is this: why would God--for over 150,000 years after he put them on this planet--leave millions or even billions of humans ignorant of His existence and thus barring them from entry into heaven?
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I will leave it at that for now, because the second question has to do with Jesus, and would probably need some explanation to provide reason for the questions if you'd like to hear them. Since I have not read the bible, only studied the origins of various religions, I might be missing something. Either way, I look forward to hearing from you.
Until then, take it easy my friend

by fanatic-777, April 16 2008 : 6:36pm